Letter to the Editor: Too many in Southern Utah are ‘denying the undeniable’ regarding climate change

Photo by BruceWilley/iStock/Getty Images Plus, St. George News

OPINION — Having lived in Kanab for seven years, the most amazing “awakening” for me was not the awesome beauty found in the surrounding red hills.

Nor has it been hiking the fabulous back country within the national parks and the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, or GSENM, nor was it being astonished in observing the majority of the region’s citizenry endorsing the actions of city, county, state, and federal politicians, as they effusively praised (President) Donald Trump and (Interior Department Secretary) Ryan Zinke in downsizing both GSENM and Bears Ears National Monument, seemingly unaware they were jeopardizing their own livelihood, in effect shunning tourism.

No, my most amazing awakening has been, and still is, witnessing the staunch obstinacy of the conservative faction within this region, denying the undeniable … their refusal to study and learn the science … that the root cause of climate change is directly attributable to the actions of mankind … that the hockey-stick correlation of CO2 and global temperature escalation these past two centuries, is lock-stepped with mankind’s fossil fuel consumption.

The science has it nailed! Yet most cling to denial, like a baby to a pacifier.

To some degree, I understand the “mind lock” political ideology imposes on we humans, and I understand how the “echo chamber effect” thwarts some from peeking above the walls of their ideological trenches. What I do not understand is when politics prevents intelligent people from accepting rock solid, bona fide science.

The world’s climate scientists are 98-99 percent in agreement with the facts! Yet this does not seem to connect with America’s conservative faction, as most unashamedly choose to ignore the experts, and follow a man who probably does not know the physics as to why water boils; ditto for the Fox News pundits.

With my background of science and engineering, such denial is mind-boggling. If 50 doctors diagnosed a patient as having cancer, but one doctor said “no,” would any reasonable person dismiss the 50?

Having observed the majority of southern Utah continually reject the mounting evidence of proven scientific facts, has imposed culture shock upon me. The inane echoing of “the climate is always changing” rings as a community-mortifying admission of “scientific illiteracy.”

Having written several letters to the editor on this topic, and many dozens of emails to my list of 200+, my views have been challenged many times in this community, but never scientifically!

Often, the “best” challenges have been via immature name-calling letters of rebuttal, and even face-to-face, fire-in-the-eyes anger (I am not exaggerating!) as to how I could be “so stupid” as to “believe” in climate change. Unlike them, I earned my “stupidity” via decades of a science-based education and career. This issue is not about beliefs, but factual chemistry and physics.

I can count on three fingers when a denier approached me with civility, seeking to understand. It is clear the vast majority seems more comfortable keeping their heads buried in the coral pink sand.

Six weeks ago I read an article in which banking giant HSBC, of London, with 3,900 offices in 67 countries, and assets exceeding $2.7 trillion, announced it will no longer fund oil or gas projects in the Arctic, tar sands projects, or most coal projects. With the World Bank leading, HSBC is aligned with the tenets of the Paris accord. What they are saying is, “there is no future in fossil fuels.”

It seems the dominant mindset within Southern Utah puts more faith in the pompous bellowing of nonscientists, like Trump and (news commentator Sean) Hannity, than in the body of esteemed international climate scientists within the 197 nations of the Paris accord. The USA sits alone, an embarrassment to itself and to the world.

The onslaught of fossil-fuel funded think tanks in the USA pumps $$$ hundreds of millions $$$ annually to “create doubt” on climate change, and it has succeeded via the inflexible conservatively stuck mindset. Sadly, those who refuse to learn the science invite great risk to their posterity. Are you of that mold?

Those who want to keep denying the obvious, go ahead! Science will win; ignorance will lose. Those who buy the “hoax” mantra of Trump, (Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott) Pruitt, Zinke, (Senate Majority Leader Mitch) McConnell, (House Speaker Paul) Ryan, et al., go ahead! The banks believe the science, not the GOP’s heart of denial, and with each year the money will double down on the science.

Go ahead and cheer the anti-science guy, and swallow his clueless rhetoric, his “MAGA” banter, which includes going down the rathole for “beautiful clean coal.” Go ahead and high-five each other while America “paints itself into a corner,” drilling for more oil while the rest of the world is applying keen scientific research and development to advance solar, wind and other renewable energies.

Go ahead and scoff at China, Germany and other leading nations while they progress and we regress. There will be a future day when some of you might look back at 2018 and ask yourself, “what the hell was I thinking?!”

As we all know, truth often hurts, but truth is a powerful awakening! I challenge you … read and learn … a good place to start is Skeptical Science website.

Whereas Southern Utah has a bounty of wonderful people, I wish you all the very best!

Submitted by STEVE HOGSETH, formerly of Kanab.

Letters to the Editor are not the product of St. George News, its editors, staff or news contributors. The matters stated and opinions given are the responsibility of the person submitting them. They do not reflect the product or opinion of St. George News and are given only light edit for technical style and formatting..

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103 Comments

  • Blemonds June 8, 2018 at 3:56 pm

    If Steve Hogseth truly has a background in engineering, then he is aware that there is a method to science. That method varies slightly as presented by some, but basically remains consistent. The method includes asking a question, doing research (such as collecting data), forming a hypothesis and conducting experiments. Therein lies the problem for the climate change alarmists. There have been no experiments. The daunting task of actually conducting such an experiment leads so called scientists to circumvent the scientific method by using computer models which reminds us of the old adage, garbage in, garbage out. If you confront a climate change alarmist on this point, he will direct you to yet another instance of researchers who bore a new hole in an ice shelf somewhere and so determined that climate change is real. The trouble is that boring holes is not experimentation. It is research, data collection. Where we are right now in the scientific method regarding climate change is at the hypothesis step.

    The reality is that research indicates that climate has always been dynamic, never been static. The data collection indicates that the planet has warmed, and cooled since before man ever dreamed of driving a gas guzzling SUV. The truth is that climate change alarmism is not a matter of science, but rather politics. It is a means of forcing a transfer of wealth but Americans to the citizens of poorer countries. Nothing more. The science of climate change as presented today is not science at all, but rather a form of pseudoscience. That, Mr. Hogseth, is why we “deny the undeniable”, because the so called undeniable a falsehood

    • Craig June 8, 2018 at 4:09 pm

      Great.

    • bikeandfish June 8, 2018 at 4:26 pm

      First, we have thousands of climate change “experiments” that have supported anthropogenic causes/hypotheses. Every scientific field relies upon modeling which are scientifically valid tools.

      Yes, the earth is a dynamic system that has changed over time. But that is a red herring that not presented in good faith. The question and concern is the narrow range of conditions that allow human populations to thrive and survive (especially at current or bigger populations). That is why warming is a big deal as it affects systems we rely upon as a species.

      Anthropogenic global climate change is scientifically valid and supported by a consensus of scientist from just about every relavent scientific field. Its not a hypothesis at this point, we are well past that. The psuedoscience is coming from the “merchants of doubt” that you seem to trust.

      • Utahguns June 8, 2018 at 6:29 pm

        The earth has gone through climate changes long before humans came on board. It’s part of the cycles that the earth goes through during its life. This isn’t an example of your theorems and psuedoscience from the “merchants of doubt”.

        If you look at the evidence of broad-leafed fossilized plant life say, for instance in Greenland (yes Greenland), you’ll see the colonization of land by plants, bringing about greening of the Earth’s surface and making it possible for animals to exploit the land.
        Among the world’s richest sources of Triassic/ Jurassic fossils are the Ittoqqortoormiit deposits of East Greenland.
        Yup, Greenland, where today you can’t go around in your jock strap more than four months a year.
        So these big bad T-Rexosaurs weren’t snow-shoeing during their life. If anything they wished they had sun-block.

        Do your self a favor, put a small investment (about the price of a Starbucks mocha latte) into your higher education and get the video “Is Genesis History?”.
        Nobody in the anti-religion group wants you to know about this documentary. It will expand that one-way focused mind of yours and at the least, give you some perspective on the other opinions of people.

        • bikeandfish June 8, 2018 at 9:22 pm

          My degree is in the sciences. My mentors are doctorates in relevant fields. My critical thinking skills snd education have led to me recognizing the difference between psuedoscience and science, ie not a junk science film narrated by Focus on the Family.

          You lost all scientific credibility with that reference.

          • John June 8, 2018 at 9:34 pm

            bikeandfish…so what? just proves your’e a snob and a blowhard, nothing else!

          • Utahguns June 8, 2018 at 10:10 pm

            Do you honestly think that Creationism can’t coincide with Evolution?
            You think its either Black or White, right?
            It’s “I’m always going to be right and You’re an imbecile”…

            You don’t think the human brain would be able to comprehend both sides of an argument, and not be able to value and appreciate both sets of points?
            Your degree, your mentors, your critical thinking skills and your “recognizable differentiating skills” are keeping you away from realizing the real potential your brain has….
            Son, you still have a long, long way to go.

          • bikeandfish June 8, 2018 at 11:20 pm

            Creationism is unverifiable concept that relies solely on faith. So, of course it could exist but its not scientific so its doesn’t belong in a conversation about science and emperical analysis like global climate change.

            I definitely have alot to learn, we all do. I just rightfully differentiate between the natural and supernatural. And conflating the two, like you have, and engaging in the rhetoric of manufactured doubt in the face of overwhelming scientific consensus is not good faith rhetoric or logical.

      • Blemonds June 8, 2018 at 7:16 pm

        There’s a reason you put experiments in quotes. That reason being that no such experiments exist

        • bikeandfish June 8, 2018 at 9:29 pm

          Experiments is in quotes because I was referencing your fifth grade construct. Science isn’t confined to the definition you provided. Scientific “experiments” regarding climate change exist, literally in the thousands. Entire journals and symposiums exist on the subject and have for ages. Yes, “models” are used but they aren’t as weak as you describe nor the only mechanism used.

          Please take the time to read primary literature and scientific journals.

          • Blemonds June 9, 2018 at 7:15 am

            This is what you get when you fail to toe the liberal line, insults rather than discussion. That’s evidence of a lost argument

          • bikeandfish June 9, 2018 at 9:42 am

            I didn’t insult you, I accurately labeled your simplistic description of science. You tried to use a watered down definition of science to discredit a complex and advanced scientific issue of climate change. But you know this already as you started comments with a bad faith argument to begin with.
            And if insults are a sign of forfeiting an argument then you lost from the start when you threw out the phrase “climate alarmist”.

            The burden of discrediting the scientific consensus of climate change is significantly more immense than verbally (and inaccurately) attacking “models” and claiming there are no “experiments”.

            For two decades the many “merchants of doubt” have seeded your problematic ideas into society. But at the end of the day we know the facts of the science wether or not people are motivated to change (which is and always will be different than the science).

            PS…. nothing liberal about it, its empericsl science.

  • Craig June 8, 2018 at 4:11 pm

    I give little credence to someone who denigrates anyone who dares disagree with them. It’s a lesson learned from the WWII Brown Shirts.

    Simple name-calling is neither discussion nor debate.

    • Chris June 8, 2018 at 4:29 pm

      If you really believed that, you would hate Trump, and yet you do not. Trump’s “debate” is always simple name-calling, and you defend him religiously.

  • John June 8, 2018 at 4:20 pm

    Right Mr Chicken Little,(STEVE HOGSETH) YOU ARE WRONG SIR!
    Natural Climate Cycles
    Climate varies without human influence, and this natural variation is a backdrop for the human-caused climate change occurring now. These patterns hold important lessons for understanding the magnitude and scope of current and future climate changes.

    Cyclical variations in the Earth’s climate occur at multiple time scales, from years to decades, centuries, and millennia. Cycles at each scale are caused by a variety of physical mechanisms. Climate over any given period is an expression of all of these nested mechanisms and cycles operating together.
    https://www.fs.usda.gov/ccrc/climate-basics/climate-primer/natural-climate-cycles

    • tcrider June 8, 2018 at 4:58 pm

      johnboy, you been swallowing your chewing tobacco again. you
      know your insurance will drop you as soon as they find out.

      • Utahguns June 8, 2018 at 6:32 pm

        Got anything of worth to say tricycle?

        • tcrider June 8, 2018 at 7:34 pm

          its gunboy and johnboy, I thought you
          you inbreds were banned from southern
          Utah for playing with each others pistols
          in public.
          the only inbred missing is mesaman, or is it, messedupman?

          • tcrider June 8, 2018 at 7:45 pm

            gunboy, messedupman and johnboys family tree is one single line, haha

        • John June 8, 2018 at 9:25 pm

          big wheeler thinks he has some knowledge, but in reality his cognitive reasoning was destroyed from all those bong hits…too bad the moron never graduated third grade!

    • bikeandfish June 8, 2018 at 9:31 pm

      What you have described is consistent with climate change. Now add the variable of humanity’s needs and discover why the anthropogenic influences are of concern. Its not just about observing the dynamic earth systems but about considering the rate and quality of changes we have influenced in systems we need for survival.

  • georgie June 8, 2018 at 5:15 pm

    There are numerous scientists that do not agree with the global warming mantra.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/gradsoflife/2018/05/24/rewiring-employment-in-a-new-age/#42b90b1d5b2a

    Have you considered that earth isn’t the only planet that is heating up, most likely from cyclical events?
    http://www.space.news/2015-10-06-entire-solar-system-is-heating-up-scientists-blame-solar-warming.html

    The earth is warming, however is isn’t predominantly man made, have you considered volcano’s, a weakened magnetic shield, the sun at a solar minimum? Must look beyond the mind control directives and do some research…

    • theone June 9, 2018 at 9:26 am

      LMAO!! You source from a rightwing conspiracy news and the pseudoscience of spacenews.
      Spacenews never publishes original material, they use conspiracy sites for most of their sourcing.
      Come back when you have the ability to use credible and critical thinking articles.
      The Solar system is heating up……… LMAO what a joke.
      Astronomers have debunked that nonsense tenfold.

  • NotSoFast June 8, 2018 at 6:24 pm

    Ok Steven, your thoughts have been listened to. Send your participation receipt, time typing, etc. to Mr. Gore and the UN gang for payment.
    Don’t forget to change the title from Global Warming to Climate Change like all the other so called experts.
    I understand your next article covers why gender neutral is a must for mankind to survive. We’ll be waiting for it.

  • comments June 8, 2018 at 6:43 pm

    I’m not interesting in jumping in on this debate. The world is going to hell with or without this climate stuff, so I’m not real concerned about it. The first thing I did was scroll down to see who this letter was from, and I’m just very relieved to see that it isn’t from the notorious letter writer AND idiot, MR. CRAIG DAVID. Cheers craig 😉 and thanks for not writing in more of your drivel/garbage 😉

  • Real Life June 8, 2018 at 9:14 pm

    The people who simply say that climate change does not exist are the ones who make me shake my head. Climate change is real, how it’s caused can be debated.

    • bikeandfish June 8, 2018 at 9:38 pm

      To a certain extent we can still question the “how” but we do know humans are affecting the rate and quality of changes. And remember, this is about protecting our species, not just the esoteric concept of our planet. Its about recognizing the anthropogenic influences are changing our planet much faster than most species can adapt to and therefore our ability to survive and thrive (as we are dependent on a narrow range of conditions) is in question.

      • John June 8, 2018 at 11:11 pm

        hahahahahahahahahaha! Long-winded and pompous as usual ! Where did you get your degree? the bill nye school of science? Algore meteorology institute? You sure do use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing!

  • mesaman June 8, 2018 at 9:30 pm

    I guess it will come down to whom you trust. On the one side are scientists who may or may not be rigorously abiding by scientific process and objectively stating the facts, or on a different perspective, just being a creature who experiences the changes in weather as a natural process. If you wish to chronicle the changes in earth’s various species and the effect humanity has invaded their habitat. And if you wish to argue that the capriciousness of mankind and his encroachment of habitats has diminished the natural beauty of this earth, then you have a colleague. Otherwise you have placed yourself at the mercy of scientists. That is a rather uncomfortable posture to take.

  • Blaine June 8, 2018 at 10:34 pm

    1 – True science demands testing and proof — not consensus and AlGore dramatics.
    2 – Is man-made pollution unacceptable? Yes. Does it cause climate change? Man’s effect on climate change is insignificant when compared to Mother Nature.
    3 – Science has long shown that climate has changed dramatically and repeatedly for billions of years — long before my lawn mower began emitting its emissions. Those changes are due to a wide variety of natural (ie non-anthropogenic) factors including Earth’s variable distance from the Sun, its wobble on its axis, changes in its rate of rotation around its axis, volcanic events, variable solar output, movement of tectonic plates, very significant natural variations in “green-house” gases, etc. Those who stayed awake in that 4th-grade science lesson know about these factors.
    4 – Somebody still believes that hockey stick nonsense? How quaint.

    • bikeandfish June 8, 2018 at 11:23 pm

      Scientific consensus is created through decades of rigorous multidisciplinary experimentation.

      • John June 9, 2018 at 12:06 am

        hahahahahahahaha! Your climate change science is pure garbage! There is more proof of the creation. You continue to believe what ever the MSM feeds you, and I don’t argue with pompous blockheads!

      • John June 11, 2018 at 8:28 am

        IS Climate Change A HOAX?
        Isn’t it time you read the facts? The propaganda of man-made climate change has been promoted by those with a political agenda by suppressing the truth and spreading fear. In this effort they have recruited academics, media, environmental groups, governments, the United Nations, even religions. Scientific evidence supporting man-made global warming has now been investigated by scientists and found to be baseless. Examination of the data has revealed the theory of climate change for the propaganda it is, derived from erroneous data, junk science, even scientific fraud. Even though the whole issue was debunked as fraud years ago, liberals keep trying to pass it off as science. That’s been there modus operandi for years, trying to present fake news as facts and getting shot down. They wait a few years and it comes back to the top of the list of what they should be complaining about today. b&f, it really sheds some light on the fact that you only recite the liberal talking points they program you for. But for our benefit you are only good enough to come off as an arrogant, hateful and pompous blowhard. It must really suck eating dinner alone every night! I can’t imagine anybody ever wanting to be around such an egotist!

  • No Filter June 9, 2018 at 12:32 am

    Let’s put aside our opinions about whether climate change is real or not and ask ourselves this question. Do we want to live in a world with giant garbage islands floating in our oceans and live in cities where the smog is so bad you have to wear mask. How about the inversions in SLC. Or do we want to change our ways so we can breath easier and have a clean earth for generations to come. This decision should be as easy as do I want to live in a nice clean home or a dirty old shed with dirt floors. You cannot deny that we are hurting our planet in one way or the other. So whether we are causing the temperature to rise or not we should all be doing our part to keep our planet clean for no other reason than to preserve it for future generations. Let’s not turn the Disney movie wall-e into a history documentary.

    • mesaman June 9, 2018 at 7:58 pm

      Your comment it too ludicrous to deserve a rebuttal.

  • LocalDad June 9, 2018 at 2:33 am

    I’m not a scientist .I’m not proficient with the method that has proven global warming is man-made but I have a legitimate question. Recently in Guatemala a volcano erupted. Several seem to have erupted in the last few years. Do we know how many tons of greenhouse gases are emitted from each eruption. This might sound like a stupid question, I may be wrong, let me know if I am, I don’t believe there’s any way to measure that. But like I said I’m not a scientist and I could be wrong. But if I’m right and there is no way to measure the amount of greenhouse gases that are emitted from things like forest fires and volcanoes, even the carbon released as fungi breaks down the organic material of forest floors; how is that amount quantified and added to this exact unimpeachable calculation that has so many scientist claiming man caused global warming is just a fact now. How have these scientists measured and subtracted the exact amount of carbon trapped in man-made structures? How have they measured the exact amount of carbon and methain trapped in unsightly land-fields or is floating around the ocean as plastic pollution? I’m very serious and curious. Wouldn’t those figures need to be quantified somehow to claim man-made global warming is more than the most probably theory? Like I said I’m not a scientist or anything. Like my pseudonym says I identify myself most as a dad who lives in Utah. But isn’t it also a plausible Theory that the reason man’s population has increased as global warming intensifies is because it was hard for mankind to thrive during the Ice Age and a certain amount of warming change the global environment making the Earth more suitable for the increased population and now at the end of that cycle we’re facing the global condition of too hot rather than too cold? Maybe that’s not as likely or as plossible as human-caused global warming but isn’t it at least plausible? And if it’s at all possible doesn’t that mean human-caused global warming can not actually be a “fact?” Finally, how long before human kind’s dependence on fossil fuels, did Egypt in the surrounding region change from a lush green tropical forest to the desert we know today? If man is the only means to drive the engine of climate change how did he cause that to happen?

    • John June 9, 2018 at 9:52 am

      Climate change/ Global warming has never been conclusively proven. It has always been just a liberal talking point . Just another ploy to frighten the masses to follow them off the cliff while they strip the wealth from the earth’s citizens. In reality climate change is called SEASONS, It’s been going on forever. It’s cyclical, it’s been going on forever. The left can take their “sky is falling” mentality and stuff it where the sun doesn’t shine. If you live here, it’s hot in the summer, it’s been like that forever. If you live near the arctic circle, it’s cold in the winter. If you live on a volcano, it could blow up right below you, it’s been doing that forever too ! You can’t change it liberals! This is not news! hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    • bikeandfish June 9, 2018 at 3:26 pm

      The numbers from eruptions in most places comes from remote observation. I know one tool is spectrometry but there are many.

      There are ways to statistically/empirically analyze various hypotheses, ie correlation and causation related to global climate change. They are done in a way that analyzes multiple factors. The consensus from scientist in different fields is that human, ie anthropogenic, influences are the leading cause of global climate change. Does that mean its the only one? No, earth is a complex system with many variables and they do come into play. But they are accounted for in the science.

      I don’t know as much about Egypt but it sounds like your are talking about landscape wide changes like desertification. Region across the globe have experienced similar geographically sudden changes. I mean southern utah was always a desert and even had its own species of sloth ages ago. But you are talking two different issues, ie regional change versus systemic global change. The issue at hand is how the entire planet is changing due to human influence. If it was just isolated regions we would be having vastly different conversations.

      • Lee Saunders June 11, 2018 at 2:54 pm

        Did you mean Southern Utah was NOT always a desert? There’s fossil evidence that this area has been part of the inland sea millions of years ago.

        I think the crux of the conservative argument against the obvious is that to do something about it would cost them money, certainly in the short term. Like not paying one’s fair share of taxes, in the long term it will certainly cost them more-paying more taxes to reduce the deficit.

        As far as climate change, sure, nobody disagrees that there has been variations in climate throughout earth’s history. However, there has never been change so rapidly as in the last 100 years, coinciding quite well with the industrial age. I find it hard to understand why people don’t trust, for example, the evidence of glacial cores which relate quite well to other scientific methods such as (more short term)dendrochronology and (more long term) fossil records. Ice core isotopes are very reliable indicators of past temperatures and have dated those temperatures back hundreds of thousands of years, indicating quite well definable fluctuations, but never as fast and extreme as the current warming.

        • bikeandfish June 11, 2018 at 4:01 pm

          Yep, meant NOT always. Sorry for not catching error. My keyboard does something weird occasionally which results in unfortunately erasing AND/OR adding letters, etc.

          Agree on alot of what you are saying after that.

          I have hope that we’ll get to the point of discussing government action as the majority of Americans seem to accept anthropogenic climate change, especially when they are educated on the fact that there is scientific consensus.

  • commonsense June 9, 2018 at 6:38 am

    It sounds like Mr Hogseth is like Ed Bikefish, square pegs trying to fit into round holes.
    Politicizing climate change has hurt the cause of environmental protection. The best chance to clean up our air and water is economic prosperity. The technology to find alternative fuels and clean existing pollution comes with a price tag. Economic repression drives irresponsible pollution.
    The most affluent governments will have the resources to inform and patrol offenders. Economic incentives will drive research and development of better options.

  • statusquo June 9, 2018 at 7:19 am

    Its a scientific fact – SUV’s were the reason the ice age ended.

  • beacon June 9, 2018 at 9:26 am

    Wow! Reading these comments makes my head swim! As a retired twenty-year oil and gas employee and one who has studied the information regarding climate change and global warming and listened to many presentations by climatologists and others in related fields, I’m convinced we need to head in a new direction. Yes, we’ve had natural processes that have led to increased carbon and methane in our atmosphere but unless they have increased dramatically since the 1950 when fossil fuel consumption, autos, etc., increased significantly then I have to accept the fact that autos and other uses of these fuels along with population growth that has demanded more and more are the causes. In fact, we don’t even have to agree on exactly what the cause is. What’s needed is to come up with a solution before we can’t deal with it and find ourselves in a real fix. I fear that the people who don’t see it as a problem don’t want to have their lives upset by the need for any change so they cling to the idea that either there is no problem or they can’t do anything about it anyway. In the meantime, the storms get worse and taxpayers pick up the tab for companies that leave orphaned wells on our public lands as noted in information from the GAO that says costs and liabilities of orphaned wells is increasing while BLM has it budget reduced but still has a mandate to allow energy development and can’t keep up with deadbeat companies that run off at taxpayer expense.

    • John June 9, 2018 at 10:30 am

      The kool aid drinkers say man can fix it. Sorry, you can’t change the seasons any more than you can control the placement of an earthquake, the path of a tornado or the temperature of the sun. When somebody says they can.. It is called QUACK SCIENCE!

      • beacon June 9, 2018 at 11:06 am

        John, your comments make it clear you have not studied the issue because you have nothing informative to add to the discussion. It’s certainly your right to have your position, but it’s not based on anything substantive from what you’ve written. You and others can continue driving gas-guzzling vehicles, continue to demand more drilling and “hope” for a better future for your children and grandchildren. I wish you all well in that pursuit of the impossible dream.

        • John June 9, 2018 at 1:41 pm

          Oh? But I have and it is most definitely QUACK SCIENCE.. Especially when you believe humans can change the course of nature..hahahahahahahahahahaha! Ain’t gonna happen..

          • beacon June 9, 2018 at 2:51 pm

            John, perhaps you can quote some of your sources?

          • John June 9, 2018 at 3:57 pm

            https://www.fs.usda.gov/ccrc/climate-basics/climate-primer/natural-climate-cycles

            Millennial Climate Cycles

            Major glacial (cold) and interglacial (warm) periods are initiated by changes in the Earth’s orbit around the Sun, called Milankovitch cycles. These cycles have occurred at different intensities on multi-millennial time scales (10,000 – 100,000 year periods). The orbital changes occur slowly over time, influencing where solar radiation is received on the Earth’s surface during different seasons (NASA 2000).

            By themselves, these changes in the distribution of solar radiation are not strong enough to cause large temperature changes. However they can initiate powerful feedback mechanisms that amplify the slight warming or cooling effect caused by the Milankovitch cycle. One of these feedbacks is caused through changes in global surface reflectivity (also called albedo). Even a slight increase in solar radiation at northern latitudes can increase ice melt. As a result of ice loss, less sunlight is reflected from the bright white surface of the ice, and more is absorbed by the Earth, increasing overall warming. A second feedback mechanism involves atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations, such as carbon dioxide. The slight warming initiated by changes to Earth’s orbit warms oceans, which allows them to release carbon dioxide. As we’ve seen, more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere causes more warming, creating an amplifying effect (Hansen 2003). Distinct feedbacks in atmospheric CO2 concentrations may lag warming or cooling caused by orbital changes by as much as 1000 years.

            In this way, what begins as fairly minor changes in orbit can produce the glacial and interglacial cycles of the last 800,000 years. A major concern with current climate change is that similar feedback mechanisms will cause a ‘runaway’ warming effect in modern times that will be extremely difficult to halt or reverse.

        • John June 9, 2018 at 3:04 pm

          Also the article is about climate change and you comment about conservation and resources. Two completely different animals! That’s the problem with you liberals, you lump all your rabbit trails together to create a problem that simply does not exist! ” If it isn’t broken, it’s because the liberals haven’t tried to fix it yet!”

          • bikeandfish June 9, 2018 at 4:48 pm

            You clearly don’t know much about climate change. Fossil fuel extraction = additional carbon load = global climate change. The concern about resource extraction is directly related to the issue at hand.

          • John June 9, 2018 at 7:58 pm

            You don’t know the difference either blockandfail!..hahahahahahaha! Preservation of the planet will not ever change the NATURAL CYCLICAL NORMAL VARIATIONS IN THE CLIMATE! You are most certainly an indoctrinated clueless liberal if you think man is causing it or can change it! I don’t really give two turds about your degree in gender studies. How’s that job at swillbucks working out for you?

    • bikeandfish June 9, 2018 at 3:14 pm

      Agreed, beacon. There are a handful of original sources out there feeding climate change denial despite more evidence mounting every year from every relevant scientific field. But seeding doubt is a simple tool with immense repercussions, especially in a nation with a noticeable deficit in scientific literacy.

      And even if the average person who believes the rhetoric of denial changed their mind you would still have the uphill battle of changing their behavior and potentially values. That’s compounded more by the way our country conflates all governance with politics because sadly we need large scale solutions for the near future which means some involvement by nation states. I sincerely think its an issue that exploits all of the weaknesses of humanity in a synchronized fashion.

      Best of luck. John is a hateful troll through and through that this site should have dumped years ago but they haven’t. The good news is the momentum has changed alot of minds and even the content of the conversation which has clearly moved in the right direction the last decade, likely just slower than the problem demands. I have seen alot of positive change in real life, ie not on heavily trolled internet forums.

      • John June 9, 2018 at 8:22 pm

        bikeand fail, What a self important fount of misinformation you are! With your fake college degrees and your pompous attitude, why you should fit right in working at the DNC. Funny thing is , you actually believe the crap you spout. You are nothing more than a clueless indoctrinated liberal and it I love to point it out! hahahahahahahahaha! You type lots of words, go down many rabbit trails and never can stick to the original point. you are long-winded and never say anything. Your reading comprehension is severely broken! We all know why nobody likes you, and as long as you have that “holier then thou” attitude we will continue to ridicule your ignorance!

  • jaybird June 9, 2018 at 8:37 pm

    We’re supposed to steward the planet, not use it up. Climate change or not, clean up the environment naturally and stop fooling ourselves we are not to blame for dirty pollution.

  • beacon June 9, 2018 at 11:09 pm

    John, you did pick up on this comment on the website that you provided as proof of your position right? “Climate varies without human influence, and this natural variation is a backdrop for the human-caused climate change occurring now. These patterns hold important lessons for understanding the magnitude and scope of current and future climate changes.” The website is not ignoring the effects of “human-caused climate change occurring now” which is the point most of us are trying to make. We do have influence, and that is what we should be dealing with, John.

    • John June 10, 2018 at 8:47 am

      Actually the article points out humans don’t make a damn difference..Humans do not cause climate change and humans can not alter it period! Conservation and being responsible about the environment are good things but they will not ever be able to change the natural progression of the universe or change the temperature of the sun. Liberals like to tie unrelated things together so they have an agenda. They have bought the progressive lies . Use some common sense , man!

      • bikeandfish June 10, 2018 at 9:46 am

        Its funny that you had the gall to somehow critique my scientific literacy and reading comprehension all the while cherry picking a source that clearly recognizes the scientific rigor of anthrogenic climate change. From your source:

        “Natural climate cycles can help to understand what climate patterns are expected, and how the recent increase in greenhouse gas emissions is causing deviations from these expected patterns. They can offer insight into amplifying effects that may intensify warming as greenhouse gas concentrations rise (Wolff 2011). They may also provide insight on regional impacts of climate change, which will be very important for developing adaptation strategies for human and ecological communities. However, it is important to recognize that current rates of global climate change are extremely rapid compared to past changes (IPCC 2013 Ch.5), and may produce conditions that have not been anticipated.”

        The beauty is your just sourced an IPCC supported statement and claim about climate change. Even you are unknowingly supporting human influenced climate change. Make no mistake, the vast majority of scientists, including those in the USFS that you just cited, recognize the scientific truth of climate change. The source you provided is a primer about climate change from the “Climate Change Resource Center” whose unequivically states:

        “The factor that best explains the warming trend over the last century is the increase of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, which are caused by human activity. Scientists have examined many other potential causes of recent warming, such the Sun’s variations in brightness, however, the magnitude of these effects is not sufficient to explain actual temperature observations on Earth. Human disruption is simply the only current explanation we have that fits the data (Lean 2009).” (https://www.fs.usda.gov/ccrc/education/climate-faq)

        • John June 10, 2018 at 10:36 am

          Being the long-winded clueless libtard that you are, it’s just way too easy to make you look like a total carrot chasing meat puppet! Absolutely no common sense and never a straight comment. bikeandfish thinks humans have a thermostat to control the sun! Bikeandfish thinks she can stop a volcano by throwing in a virgin. bikeandfish believes cow farts are melting the polar ice caps. You should move to california, you’ll fit right in with the fruits and flakes over there. I’m sure there is a swillbucks that will hire you with your gender studies degree! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha!

        • John June 10, 2018 at 10:43 am

          You should cut down on the intake of that liberal lemonade. Maybe , someday you will get over yourself and drop that obnoxious “I think I know more than you” attitude and actually make a comment that doesn’t make people want to spit on you!

          • bikeandfish June 10, 2018 at 12:44 pm

            I have no doubt you have anger issues that make you want to spit on people.

            And I demonstrably no more than you on this subject. You can’t even recognize, nonetheless admit, that you cherry pick statements that ironically discredit your own point. You are consistently a bold faced liar that exemplifies the scientific illiteracy this country is facing right now.

          • John June 10, 2018 at 1:00 pm

            I only want to spit on you, not because I have an anger issue but because you are such an indoctrinated pompous arrogant and clueless blowhard.

          • bikeandfish June 10, 2018 at 1:20 pm

            People without anger issues don’t desire to spit on people. Your inability to rationally and civilly deal with people exposes your anger and hate. That is about you, not others.

            I am not convinced you understand the meaning of the word clueless, given your consistently inaccurate statements and assumptions on this website.

            if you don’t want to be an angry, hateful troll than stop acting like one.

          • John June 10, 2018 at 4:09 pm

            I looked up clueless in the dictionary and right next to it was picture of a fish riding a big wheel. Clueless and misinformed is YOU! hahahahahahaha! pompous blowhard snowflake that you are!

          • ladybugavenger June 10, 2018 at 5:45 pm

            Actually b&f , you are a pompous know it all and its nauseating. That’s not my issue, that’s yours.

          • ladybugavenger June 10, 2018 at 5:49 pm

            B&f there is absolutely no heart and no humanity or humility in the way you speak. There is no human aspect of empathy or understanding of others in your tone

          • bikeandfish June 10, 2018 at 10:40 pm

            LBA,

            I can think of no greater compliment coming from the person who openly blamed women of #metoo for their own sexual assault.

        • John June 10, 2018 at 11:15 pm

          b&f She’s right, you are one arrogant, pompous and uneducated blowhard!

          • bikeandfish June 11, 2018 at 1:01 pm

            Thank you, you sure know how to make me blush with pride.

        • John June 11, 2018 at 10:47 am

          Your scientific literacy? hahahahahahaha! Now that’s funny right there!!!

          • bikeandfish June 11, 2018 at 12:58 pm

            You mean the ability I have to see that the link you provided to deny anthrogenic climate change unequivocally supports anthrogenic climate change? Like that scientific literacy?

            Keep up with the juvenile insults though because at least you succeed at something that way, ie entertaining yourself.

          • John June 11, 2018 at 2:58 pm

            blank and feckless, Your’e an idiot! hahahahahaha! We made you look like a fool and will continue to do so until you drop your obnoxious, misguided “know it all” attitude. You don’t fool anybody, we all know you are a totally insecure, mentally handicapped shut-in and if it wasn’t for meals on wheels you would probably die of starvation. This ridicule is the closest thing you ever get to getting any attention and we don’t even feel sorry that you are one miserable uneducated fool! hahahahahahahahahaha! Your stupid argument was debunked over 20 years ago! Nobody is buying it!

  • beacon June 10, 2018 at 3:05 pm

    John, good luck with your position and attitudes as we work through this climate change, global warming situation. Folks who feel there is nothing that can be done about the situation because human behavior is not a cause will continue to feed the problem. 98% of the world’s scientists believe that humans are a cause but I’m sure you’re more well educated than they are. What is your degree in, by the way?

    • John June 10, 2018 at 5:08 pm

      98% of the compromised liberal scientists only. Sorry but if you actually believe algore and his bs fake science agenda, you are as misinformed as he is. He is only in it for money, nothing else. You want to buy that crap? Go ahead! I am waiting for you to tell us how humans are going to change the natural progression of the universe or control the seasons. It is going to happen and the dim beacon can’t do a thing to stop it. Use some common sense, man! Where is the thermostat for the sun? You liberals are all the same. Keep chasing that carrot! hahahahahahahahahahaha!

    • John June 10, 2018 at 8:05 pm

      “If it isn’t broken, it’s because the liberals haven’t tried to fix it yet!” Use some common sense, man! Quit eating the garbage CNN has been feeding you!
      IS GLOBAL WARMING A HOAX? Isn’t it time you read the facts? The propaganda of man-made global warming has been promoted by those with a political agenda by suppressing the truth and spreading fear. In this effort they have recruited academics, media, environmental groups, governments, the United Nations, even religions. Scientific evidence supporting man-made global warming has now been investigated by scientists and found to be baseless. Examination of the data has revealed the theory of climate change for the propaganda it is, derived from erroneous data, junk science, even scientific fraud.

  • beacon June 11, 2018 at 8:09 am

    Old news, John.

    • John June 11, 2018 at 10:54 am

      Old news but it’s the truth, fake news beacon. Your global warming / climate change agenda was debunked years ago, but you libtards keep bringing it back up. When will you leftards ever learn that people who have actual operating brain cells are not buying it this time either? Keep drinking that liberal lemonade, my friend. Make sure you get in line to be a part of that porta potty leak you guys refer to as the “Blue Wave”. Don’t you libtards ever get the fact that you have not won a damn argument or a vote in like ever? ..hahahahaha!

      • bikeandfish June 11, 2018 at 3:46 pm

        Its never been debunked. In fact, the opposite is true. The number of papers rejecting or questioning the consensus view has declined over time. Ironically, the only fake news is the article you linked.

        https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-15/97-percent-consensus-on-climate-change-it-s-complicated

        The Forbes article and Popular Technology one it uses completely bypass a scientific analysis of the Cook et al. paper and instead rely upon author reactions. The Cook et al paper has withstood peer review and analysis for 5 years. The Forbes article uses logical fallacies and misdirection to critique the paper.

        You would know this if you exhibited any scientific literacy, but you don’t.

        And its worth noting that the Forbe article author, James Taylor, openly discloses his role at the Heartland Foundation and Spark of Freedom Foundation. The Heartland Foundation is funded by climate change denial corporations and activists like Exxon, Koch, etc. The Spark of Freedom Foundation is less open about its funding but it honest about its bias and goals, ie climate science denialism. James Taylor is a lawyer without any formal training or relevance in climate science.

        • John June 11, 2018 at 4:06 pm

          b& F you are full of crap! It was debunked over 20 years ago and you have been debunked here and now! hahahahaha! Go ahead, keep making an anus of yourself. We don’t care..You are wrong again as usual! Take your obnoxious small minded little ego and go take a long walk off a short pier. Nobody cares what you think! It is just way too much fun to trigger you. You are a perfect example of what not to grow up to be!

          • bikeandfish June 11, 2018 at 7:10 pm

            You never counter the argument. Are you only capable of petty insults? Would love for you to show me your scientific literacy and honestly critique the Cook et al paper yourself (ps, we know you plagarize others by not including quotes and sources). If you can’t do that then you definitely lack the requisite skills and knowledge to tackle climate change.

          • John June 12, 2018 at 12:17 am

            I did critique, it was just over your head and opposite of your “programming” you just can’t accept it! hahaha! It’s fun making you look foolish!

      • bikeandfish June 11, 2018 at 4:03 pm

        PS..you finally made a funny joke. The Blue Wave joke is probably one of the funniest statements I have ever seen on this website.

        • John June 11, 2018 at 11:39 pm

          B&F I’m not arguing….. hahahahahaha! I don’t need to prove you wrong. You do a good enough job of that yourself! hahaaha! you obnoxious , self absorbed, lonely libtard! hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Take a hike, you got a flat deary!

        • John June 11, 2018 at 11:40 pm

          p.s. you are still full of crap..

  • beacon June 11, 2018 at 9:56 pm

    John, you do realize that your insulting comments do nothing to support your argument, right? I suppose that the fellow who wrote the 2013 article you’ve provided (who has a jurisprudence degree) is in a better position to evaluate the climate change information than NASA scientists are? 98% of scientists have been paid off to support this position? That’s amazing. From https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/: “The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is extremely likely (greater than 95 percent probability) to be the result of human activity since the mid-20th century and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented over decades to millennia.” Off to pursue activities that help keep my carbon footprint low to counter yours for the benefit of my children and grandchildren.

    • John June 11, 2018 at 11:36 pm

      I’m not trying to support any argument, Just saying you are working 20 years in the past and your “facts” have been debunked 20 some years ago. I laugh at your stupidity, I’m surprised you are not a flat earther too. Actual facts about climate completely destroy any of your leftist philosophy. I provide that as definitive proof that your argument was destroyed then and nothing new has been presented to say otherwise. In other words , you are full of donkey dung! hahahahahahahahahahaha! The polar ice caps today are bigger than they were at the time of algore’s birth. Stuff it libtard, you are wrong again!

      • bikeandfish June 11, 2018 at 11:57 pm

        You think a Forbes article written by a corporate talking head about a meta-analysis on scientific consensus is proof that anthropogenic climate change is debunked? Or do you mean the USFS site you linked that unequivocally supports anthrogenic climate change? The reality is you have no proof or exhibited even basic scientific literacy.

        You know you are a liar and hack when it comes to the issue at hand. But let me guess….carrots, kool aid and snowflakes. You definitely take the cake on ignorant internet trolls, John.

        • John June 12, 2018 at 12:19 am

          You are still self absorbed and full of crap! Nobody cares what you say, pompous blowhard, what part of that don’t you understand? I win…,hahahahahahahahaha!

      • bikeandfish June 12, 2018 at 12:43 am

        The 1940s meme is another misinformed lie from misinterpreted data from John Christy’s work. His work dealt with temperature, not ice extent. The 1940s did see low ice extent but was still noticeably higher than now by about 50%.

        For those interested in science, here is discussion about this debunked myth that John is misinformed about:

        https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=429

        Another falsehood, John. You are quite talented at spreading lies.

        • John June 12, 2018 at 8:01 am

          Your’e still an idiot, and that’s not man made either. You are so full of yourself you can’t even tell when your chain is getting yanked. You say you don’t get triggered? I beg to differ. hahahahahahahahahaha! You are the easiest one to trigger just because you are so pompous and irrelevant!

          • Steve June 12, 2018 at 9:59 am

            John, your conservative climate change dogma is old, stale, unimpressive, and frankly, boring. Your liberal bashing is symptomatic of an insecure cry-baby.

          • John June 12, 2018 at 2:33 pm

            hahahahahaa! what’s the matter ? you need a cry closet, lil stevie?

          • John June 12, 2018 at 2:35 pm

            and also, i’m not the one who bought the lies, you did…hahahahaaha! sucker!

        • Lee Saunders June 12, 2018 at 9:11 am

          I’ve said it before, and I know he won’t go away, but it’s best just to totally ignore him. He hasn’t had one intelligent thing to say unless you think a string of haha’s and waah, waah’s is intelligent. Ignore him.

          • John June 12, 2018 at 1:29 pm

            lee , did you get those tables cleared yet?

          • John June 12, 2018 at 2:40 pm

            Lee, you are such an obvious effeminate liberal it’s hilarious.

        • bikeandfish June 12, 2018 at 9:41 am

          Never once been “triggered” by your comments, John. But I’m sure you’ll still say something about koolaid carrots, crayons, snowflakes, etc. The names are totally ineffective coming from a troll who doesn’t care about truth and fact.

          Enjoy knowing more citizens accept the scientific truth about anthropogenic climate change every year. We are by far the majority.

          • John June 12, 2018 at 1:31 pm

            You are so easy to trigger you pompous blowhard!

          • John June 12, 2018 at 1:33 pm

            And BTW
            The propaganda of man-made climate change has been promoted by those with a political agenda by suppressing the truth and spreading fear. In this effort they have recruited academics, media, environmental groups, governments, the United Nations, even religions. Scientific evidence supporting man-made climate change has now been investigated by scientists and found to be baseless. Examination of the data has revealed the theory of climate change for the propaganda it is, derived from erroneous data, junk science, even scientific fraud.

  • SteveH June 13, 2018 at 10:36 pm

    Being in transition, and now getting settled in our new locale, since our move from Utah, I decided to see if there were any replies to my letter. I was not disappointed, for many are classic “southern Utah.” The denial comments only underscored my point, that this state’s deniers are steeped in ignorance, and will likely live life in that mode. I tried my best to do my part in sharing the facts over seven years, even donating my time, money, buying a film, renting a community room, and advertising it in the newspaper, and inviting all in Kanab and the region to attend and watch it … for free. While the attendance was strong, the only ones who showed up were believers. Not even one denier … which proves the old adage … “you can lead a horse to water …” I was gratified to be called “Chicken Little,” for it shows “name calling” is a denier’s best weapon. Perhaps you are from Kanab, Georgie? You sighted volcanoes. Volcanoes??? Australian Ian Plimer (he’s not even a climate scientist) created that piece of absolute junk about a dozen years ago. It is totally bogus. Volcanoes contribute roughly 1/4 billion tons of CO2 annually to our atmosphere … man contributes 35 billion tons … 35 billion tons that man never began contributing until the mid/late-18th century. (So volcanoes are but a smidgen! … a non-factor.)

    At the time Edison invented the light bulb (1879) mankind was in his infancy of pumping CO2 … only one billion tons a year. So from Edison’s moment until today (139 years) we have exponentially grown 35 times! Chew on that one! And then Blemonds takes an empty trip into left field and beats on the “experimentation drum” … what a joke! What experimentation is necessary when humanity is being pummeled with mountains of facts? Facts rule! It is simple chemistry that when burning carbon, CO2 is produced, and it is simple physics that CO2 emitted into the atmosphere provides insulation. Thus more CO2 will warm our living space. Got it?

    Earliest man has been an entity for 300,000 years … that’s less than 1/1000th of one percent of the life of our planet. An eye-blink. So people who feel (smuggly) “intelligent” by pointing to high temperatures and high CO2 x-millions or x-billions years ago as being a rebuttal to today’s modern scientists … go ahead … all you do is magnify your own ignorance and further deter progress to a much needed solution. Further, those multi-millions of years ago, there were no people, hence no civilization was in jeopardy … namely by our own reckless doings. The facts show that for the last 800,000 years (minimum) CO2 has ebbed and flowed between 180 – 300 ppm (gentle swings of 120 ppm), and the fastest such swing required 15,000 years. Then the fossil fuel age began. From that time until today, we have seen the CO2 go from 280 ppm to 410 ppm, that’s a swing of 130ppm in two short centuries … 200 years … versus the previous fastest record of 15,000 years. You can chew on that one too! And you are chiding me and the world’s 18,000 climate scientists for not experimenting? Chew on this morsel too … the annual global glacial melt is equivalent to four Niagara Falls running constantly!

    I’ll close on one more note. During the 2015 GOP debates, there were 17 candidates, all in various levels of denial, but in denial nonetheless. All wanting to lead the most powerful country on the planet … all gleefully showing their ignorance of science! At the time, over 50% of Americans believed in climate change. The odds of taking a survey of 17 random Americans (throughout all states), and having 17 people consecutively be deniers is 130,000 to one (do the math!). Clearly there is a political/ideological agenda coupled to denial! Let me be blunt. It is a given that those who deny climate change do so only for their political selfish gain. Nothing else. The GOP is the party of hindrance to addressing a critical problem in the history of mankind. A key factor in my departing Utah was because of the overwhelming closed-minded conservative faction, particularly in rural southern Utah. The last thing this nation needs is 50 Utahs! I will not miss the state one iota. My letter was my “swan song,” and I had no intent of writing another word, but I weakened … thus one more parting shot. This is it. — Steve Hogseth

  • beacon June 15, 2018 at 8:38 am

    Thank you, Steve, for your intelligent, informative, comment. It’s sad that insults (Trumpisms) seem to be the fashion of the day rather than communicating effectively, as you have done.

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